Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Miana on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:45 am

Nina wrote:While I agree that all of the female leads have a bit of Mary-Sue in them, I don't think Sahara was any more or less Mary-Sueish than the others. She didn't seem overly good to me - all of her saintly actions were less because she was virtuous and thinking of the world and more about "Crap, don't fall all the way into the abyss, Kaleb!" So in a way she was incredibly selfish...

The only Mary-Sueish things about her were that she was incredibly gifted and hot... but almost all heroines are in books, especially in the Psy series.

It's not Sahara's personality that I have a problem with - it's how the plot problems are conveniently solved for her. She was in captivity for seven years. Now, I can buy her mind not being damaged because she created the labyrinth to protect herself. That's fine, but she's not Silent, which means she can feel. Where is the emotional trauma from being a captive for seven years? Sahara had only like two or three panic attacks throughout the book.

In contrast, Brenna was also tortured by Santano Enrique. We know she nearly died until Sascha saved her. We also know Sascha had multiple healing sessions with her. Judd himself thinks that Brenna has become agoraphobic and rarely leaves the den. Brenna gave up her apartment and her studies and just stayed in the den for months. She worried that she was going crazy. It took a combination of characters like Judd, Hawke, Sascha, Riley, Andrew, etc, to help her. And Brenna was tortured by Santano for less than one week.

Sahara has been a captive for seven years, yet she easily shakes off her trauma. The first few chapters were really good because Sahara was acting like the traumatized victim that she's supposed to be. After that, everything just fell into place for Sahara. She didn't work for her healing the way Brenna did, so that's why she's more Mary-Sue-ish than the other female characters.

This makes me sound like I hate Sahara, which isn't true. I actually do like her, and that's a testament to Nalini's powerful writing ... but she's not my favorite. Kaleb is so magnetic and so intense that Nalini could have written any heroine for him, and I'd have believed it one way or another.

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by syaffolee on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:50 am

Yurice wrote:

I'm still rearranging my thoughts on Aden. It's all scattered right now! xD

But yeah! To know that he had managed to sneak into Kaleb's shields. Aden is firing up my blood! rawr!

Yes. Aden is an intriguing character. Now I'm really interested at what his abilities might be, especially since it appears that he is able to sneak by a dual cardinal who could destroy the planet with one thought.

I'm also curious as to whether or not he still keeps in contact with his parents. It's strongly implied in ToN that his parents actually defected instead of dying in an explosion. (And if he does, he may understand the concept of family loyalty, like Judd, and may be one of the reasons why he's considered the most stable Arrow.)

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by TheFLuff on Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:34 am

syaffolee wrote:
Yurice wrote:

I'm still rearranging my thoughts on Aden. It's all scattered right now! xD

But yeah! To know that he had managed to sneak into Kaleb's shields. Aden is firing up my blood! rawr!

Yes. Aden is an intriguing character. Now I'm really interested at what his abilities might be, especially since it appears that he is able to sneak by a dual cardinal who could destroy the planet with one thought.

I'm also curious as to whether or not he still keeps in contact with his parents. It's strongly implied in ToN that his parents actually defected instead of dying in an explosion. (And if he does, he may understand the concept of family loyalty, like Judd, and may be one of the reasons why he's considered the most stable Arrow.)

Those who know me, so everybody on these forums, knows I have a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE soft spot for Vasic.
But where Vasic went, there always was Aden.
And I love how we finally see those two and their connection come more to the foreground.

I love how Aden is so absolutely unspectacular at first glance, so much so, that most dismiss him and look at Vasic as the more dangerous one.
And how Aden then drops the pretense and turns into that quiet intense leade with Vasic as his Enforcer... and friend.
Here is that duality of the series again. Light and Shadow.
Aden so whole, so unbroken... and Vasic so very much destroyed.
But it´s Vasic who recognizes the same in Kaleb and who grasps the significance of what Kaleb is showing them first.

the same is mirrored in their abilities. Vasic is so unique in his TK V.. so spectacular.
And Aden is... yeah.. a field medic. Granted, he has the ability to close wounds, which is kinda rare and cool too, but yeah. STandard TP/Fiel medic. *yawn*

And then he drops the pretense and is inside your shields and knows all your secrets and you´re dead.
oops!

it´s really neat, how Nalini doesn´t always mention, that they have subconcious telepathic connection. You get just get that vibe, that they work as one unit, whenever they appear.

Alright, gushing over. Back to work and then I will do a reread tonight.

Btw, I loved how not Sahara was the poor damage little helpless thing, that needed saving.
That´s a stor trope that´s been used in Romance so often now, I truly get sick of poor helpless females.
I love how the male here is truly an abused child and not dealing with it in a tough John Wayne kind of way.
He´s broken, period.

What I was thinking though.. there must be so many people out there with personalities like Saharas, bright vibrant people, that never had a chance under silence.
ANd many of them would not have had a strong family group at their back :/

yelp!
They have been killing their most vibrant and caring people.....

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Yurice on Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:50 am

Fluff, you're the most well versed reader I know when it comes to Arrows. Wink

I cannot imagine Vasic without Aden. To the point like I don't want anyone coming between them, even their own heroine. O_O;
No, I want them to be happy, to find joy like Kaleb did, but...I'm so torn right now!

re: Sahara.
I get that some people are born with innate kindness, but the extent and duration, and supposed intensity of the abuse Sahara has gone through, one would expect she'd change, even a little.
Instead, she's still very much the girl Kaleb knew, as if she had not undergone any captivity, or torture. >.>;

Sure, it's fiction, but sometimes it's the scars, the 'flaws' that makes a character easier to relate to, than the 'perfect' ones.^^ I'm not saying that Sahara should act the victim, and be all 'poor me' until the very end. I just wanted to see her healing process, but not drag it out until you just want to shoot her in the head! lol.

Like Miana, I don't hate Sahara, but she'll always be a forgettable character to me, if not for Kaleb. Smile
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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by TheFLuff on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:19 am

Yurice wrote:Fluff, you're the most well versed reader I know when it comes to Arrows. Wink

I cannot imagine Vasic without Aden. To the point like I don't want anyone coming between them, even their own heroine. O_O;
No, I want them to be happy, to find joy like Kaleb did, but...I'm so torn right now!

re: Sahara.
I get that some people are born with innate kindness, but the extent and duration, and supposed intensity of the abuse Sahara has gone through, one would expect she'd change, even a little.
Instead, she's still very much the girl Kaleb knew, as if she had not undergone any captivity, or torture. >.>;

Sure, it's fiction, but sometimes it's the scars, the 'flaws' that makes a character easier to relate to, than the 'perfect' ones.^^ I'm not saying that Sahara should act the victim, and be all 'poor me' until the very end. I just wanted to see her healing process, but not drag it out until you just want to shoot her in the head! lol.

Like Miana, I don't hate Sahara, but she'll always be a forgettable character to me, if not for Kaleb. Smile

Thanks Very Happy

I think that was worth a thanks... I mean I might be a wee bit obsessed...

ANYWAYS!
I don´t think, anything could truly come between Aden and Vasic.
In their minds, they´re constantly shadowing each other. Alot like Amara and Ashaya.. only less psychotic ^^

As for Kaleb and Sahara, My own Mary Sue feeling with her wasn´t as strong, as other.
To me it seemed like she bounced right back to being that 16 year old girl, a very mature 16 year old girl, but none the less...
Some things she says ARE that of a 16 year old girl, especially in her ragin protectiveness of Kaleb, and some are of someone, who has matured.
Abuse and torture hurt people, yes, but what actually makes them jaded and worn, is life itself and disappointments and hurts handed out by the people you trust.
And that didn´t happen to her.
She wasn´t hurt by the good people around her, but only by the bad ones.
And that I think, makes a world of difference.

Though I will have to reread the book anyways. There were some spots, that were plain weird. LIke how it dealt with her father...
It was so superficial.

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by ferdy on Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:55 pm

I agree with others that Sahara is a Mary Sue but for me no more than the other heroines (I think Sasha and Faythe are the biggest Mary Sues).
I was really bothered by Sahara getting over her torture so easily, I felt it was just brushed under the carpet in favour of her trying to 'save' Kaleb. If the heroine needed to be 'light' so she could help Kaleb then why have her tortured for seven years in the first place? Her character doesn't add up.
Like another OP said, Brenna was captured for a week and most of her book was her trying to cope with it, she needed loads of help.. But Sahara didn't need anyone, she shook of any mental/emotional damage with some help from Kaleb. It didn't seem realistic and it made Sahara less believable as a character. I still thought she was okay, but I wasn't a huge fan of hers.

Does anyone know how Kaleb managed to save everyone from the shock of Silence falling? How exactly did he do it?
Does anyone think that the Adelajas(sp?) twins may somehow be the DarkMind and NetMind?

I'm really keen on Aiden/Rina.. I know it's not a popular opinion because she's menat to be manipulative.. But I'm not 100% sure she is since we've not actually seen her POV.. All we've really seen of her is a bratty attitude, and Lucas saying she was messing that Barker guy around.. I'm not sure if I believe Lucas though because guys tend to always make assumptions about relationships - usually by dissing the girl somehow and assuming all sorts.. Unless I see the dynamics of a relationship first hand then I'm not going to believe anyone else's outside opinion. To be honest, even if Rina was manipulative, I wouldn't mind.. We see enough male characters that are cold and manipulative but they're still worthy enough to be heroes.. So why not a female character? Much like a hero, Rina can change when she meets her true love/soulmate.. And I would rather like to see that sort of character change in a heroine for a change. But that's just me Smile


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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Nina on Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:57 pm

Per the Sahara thing... I can understand the "Sahara got over it too quickly" point of view. In fact, I don't necessarily disagree. I just look at all of the heroines as being Mary-Sues, and out of all the Mary Sues I saw some things in Sahara that appealed to me more than the others. It's more of a personal preference - I like heroines that temper their emotion with logic, so I gravitate towards Psy heroines/thoughtful changeling heroines. I can give Sahara the benefit of the doubt, but not Indigo, Adria or even Mercy.

So, that being said...

That's fine, but she's not Silent, which means she can feel. Where is the emotional trauma from being a captive for seven years? Sahara had only like two or three panic attacks throughout the book......In contrast, Brenna was also tortured by Santano Enrique. We know she nearly died until Sascha saved her. We also know Sascha had multiple healing sessions with her. Judd himself thinks that Brenna has become agoraphobic and rarely leaves the den. Brenna gave up her apartment and her studies and just stayed in the den for months. She worried that she was going crazy. It took a combination of characters like Judd, Hawke, Sascha, Riley, Andrew, etc, to help her. And Brenna was tortured by Santano for less than one week.


Yes, maybe she could have been more traumatized. But all the traumatized characters in this series tend to heal more quickly than a real world person would, especially the Psy. The Psy also aren't as showy in their recovery, due to being silent (or very reserved in Sahara's case) and cerebral.

That being said, I think a better character to compare Sahara to would be Judd, not Brenna.
1. Both were raised in the Net, a negative environment.
2. Both were stolen from their families and tortured as children for years by members of their own race.
3. Both eventually rebelled (going off Jax, creating labyrinths, meeting with Father Xavier & the Ghost, attacking overly enthusiastic torturers, etc.) which gave them a sense of power over their circumstances.
4. Both had a constant in their lives they knew would always be loyal to them (Walker & Kaleb)
5. Both worked through the bulk of their issues within 2ish months.

I just don't think Sahara's healing process can be compared to Brenna's as they are too different. As twisted as it sounds, I think Psys would be more prepared to deal with the trauma of an Enrique-type situation than a sheltered, much-loved wolf changeling, due to their upbringing.

So yes, Sahara was less emotive & healed more quickly... but I don't think that that's completely out of character for a Psy, even an unSilent one. In fact, it is consistent with how other traumatized Psy have acted in past books.

But this is all my opinion, lol. It is well documented on this forum that, while I love the changelings, I love the Psy more. I'm so very biased, lol. Especially when it comes to Walker. Ah, Walker.... *drool*

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by CassB on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:31 pm

I think one important thing to remember is that Sahara was absent for much of her torture, she escaped into her mind, while Brenna was aware for all of it. To paraphrase Nina's point above, Psy have some defenses non-Psy do not. Not trying to negate people's complaints on Sahara's recovery, I get it, it just doesn't bug me.

For me, the "mary-sueish" of Nalini's characters is a draw. I have a very difficult time with angsty or very emotional books, so if an author can make me believe the character, I am all for the less trauma, the better. On the surface, many of Nalini's stories are dark, but I don't leave the stories feelings dark or thinking the book is dark. I love that about her books--I can't think of any author who does that so well. I completely understand why the seemingly ease of healing or resolution can be bothersome to some, but on the flip side it is a plus to readers like me.


Last edited by CassB on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added comment)
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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Nina on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:46 pm

CassB wrote:I have a very difficult time with angsty or very emotional books, so if an author can make me believe the character, I am all for the less trauma, the better....I completely understand why the seemingly ease of healing or resolution can be bothersome to some, but on the flip side it is a plus to readers like me.

Lol, I'm also in the "less is better" camp. I've read plenty of books that used tons of angst and trauma and drama. In addition to feeling emotionally drained after finishing them, I tend to feel that the excessive drama cheapened the story. Reminds me of the Mark Twain quote about adjectives -
"When you catch an adjective, kill it. No, I don't mean utterly, but kill most of them—then the rest will be valuable. They weaken when they are close together. They give strength when they are wide apart. An adjective habit, or a wordy, diffuse, flowery habit, once fastened upon a person, is as hard to get rid of as any other vice."


Also, as someone mentioned before, I felt the Leon Kyriakus interludes were cheap and unresolved. There was potential there, and it didn't manifest.

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Yurice on Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:27 am

Sorry, but I don't agree on Judd and Sahara. To me, they're light years away! xD

Their childhood: Sahara was abducted at 16, dare I say that she lived a relatively happy childhood because she's protected by her clan? In HoO it was mentioned that the NightStar clan are known for their strong familial loyalty. Sahara was confident her father would wait for her, and she was right. The way Anthony rallied behind her after her rescue, that's so different from Judd whose parents gave up their rights on him when he proved to be too dangerous.

Judd killed a boy at 10 <-Not sure how old really, but not yet a teen. Sahara up to 16 was living the life of a child, climbing trees, even dancing! Judd managed to get back to Walker as a broken teen. He didn't even have that 'vault' Walker teaches to keep his sanity yet, while Sahara had the labyrinth to escape to, though I can't recall if she managed to construct it soon.

Judd has blood on his hands. Sahara had never harmed anyone. In this alone, they're not comparable. imo.

Yes, they both have someone to anchor them. Judd had Walker and the kids. Sahara had her family and Kaleb.

Judd was tortured as a child, Sahara as a young adult...to me, that's a vast difference in terms of psychological development.

As for their resolution: Judd didn't work out his issues in two months. It didn't start in CbI but perhaps from the moment he met Walker again. Or, maybe when he decided to die with his family.He had been coping with life as a former Arrow since defection. It was only with Brenna that he was completely set free, but his healing didn't start there, though it was completed in CbI.
Sahara on the other hand was rescued after 7 years, and in 2 days, her labyrinth disappeared. Well ok, I get that she feels safe with Kaleb, who wouldn't? Except if he's not on your side, that is. hehe. xD

re:Labyrinth.
The mind may escape, but the body remembers.
I read somewhere that some amnesiacs though cannot recall when they learned the skill, can still perform such skill...like driving or typing. In some ways, it's like playing music, even when I cannot remember the notes, I close my eyes and just let my fingers play, and I could play the melody accurately. It's because my fingers remember what my conscious mind cannot. bleh, it's hard to explain! lol.
So even if Sahara were to escape her tormentors mentally, her body very much felt the pain. In this sense, torture is inescapable.

Now I don't like angsty books, or drawn out drama. lol. I can't stand my mom's favorite soap operas! But...if abuse and torture are presented as part of the package, then I'd expect the 'consequences' that goes with it. Otherwise, it would just would appear unreal to me.^^

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Miana on Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:48 am

Re: angst and emotional drama - I think Nalini's books are chock full of angst and drama, but the thing is, they're always resolved happily, and that's what I want. I don't mind angst and drama, as long as it ends well and the characters are in a good and happy place by the end. Isn't that what a good story should be about? A story needs drama, IMHO; otherwise it would be all about fluffy bunnies and that's not realistic.

Re: Sahara: She says that at the beginning of her captivity, it wasn't so bad. She had a suite of rooms, extra blankets, reading material, and educational games. She had "normal" guards. If she had been like that for 7 years, then I'd understand the relative lack of emotional trauma much better. That way, the book wouldn't have to be about her trauma; it'd be all about Kaleb's.

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by tlgopal969 on Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:03 am

I understand what a few of you meant about Sahara getting over her torture so easily. But at the same time, b/c of the labyrinth she built in her mind, she wasn't aware a lot of the time. Especially during the worst. Between that and her fractured memories, not to mentioned the unknown lost memories as a result of using the mind control part of her ability, I those years are distant and muted.

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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Nina on Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:03 pm

Sorry, but I don't agree on Judd and Sahara. To me, they're light years away! xD

No, that's fine, I don't think they are absolutely the same either. I was more trying to illustrate indirectly that Sahara's healing process just can't be compared to Brenna's. If Judd and Sahara are light years away... Brenna and Sahara are twice that. Perhaps a better person to compare her to would have been Sophia. I just have more Judd info in my head, lol.

My main idea was that (IMO) a Psy's reaction to & healing from a traumatic experience cannot be compared to a changeling's. It is very much apples & oranges - even the most loved & happy Psy child in the Net (Sahara) will still be more prepared than a changeling to deal with Psy abuse, due to being raised in the hostile Net.



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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Elaine on Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:54 pm

The other Psy woman who was tortured, survived and recovered is Ekaterina who renamed herself as Katya in Blaze of Memory.

While the description of her torture and pain was detailed, you must admit that her FULL recovery, with no memory effect or any discernible loss at all, was too miraculous for words.

There are times that the resolution to the personal problems of Nalini's main characters are really deus ex machina, but I still continue to read them as I am very much interested in what is happening in the world Nalini has created. Smile
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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Rageane on Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:18 am

Okay...since I didn't read the book yet I avoided this discussion like the plague!!  Now that I have read it, and have caught up, I need to make a point, well actually 2:

1.  To say that Sahara has gotten over her trauma pre-maturely and state that she hasn't hurt anyone in her life is a falsehood.  She suffered physical trauma, not so much mental trauma.  Her laberynth was not just an escape, it was a tactical defense.  She was in no way demonstrating a weakness, but in fact mentally stronger than 2 of the most evil and dangerous councilors of the net.  Plus, to say that she hadn't shed blood is in fact true, but to say that she has never killed isn't.  If you recall she admitted to making one of her gaurds for all intents and purposes the equivalent of a human vegetable...he had only the mental functions to perform basic body functions...absolutely nothing else left when she was done, that my friends is called murder in my book.

2.  As for her "MarySueish" tendancies...she is only this way with one person...Kaleb.  I have to ask you this question, if she didn't go all goody goody with him and let him do what he wanted in killing and maiming at will, would he be the hero of the peace or the monster that he was groomed to be, if she didn't be a light for him, would the Psy even be in existance today or would he have colapsed the net and performed genocide to the extreme that makes Hitler look like a toddler playing with blocks?
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Re: Heart of Obsidian book discussion thread. SPOILER HEAVY!!

Post by Patricia on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:24 am

Rageane wrote:1.  To say that Sahara has gotten over her trauma pre-maturely and state that she hasn't hurt anyone in her life is a falsehood.  She suffered physical trauma, not so much mental trauma.  Her laberynth was not just an escape, it was a tactical defense.  She was in no way demonstrating a weakness, but in fact mentally stronger than 2 of the most evil and dangerous councilors of the net.  Plus, to say that she hadn't shed blood is in fact true, but to say that she has never killed isn't.  If you recall she admitted to making one of her gaurds for all intents and purposes the equivalent of a human vegetable...he had only the mental functions to perform basic body functions...absolutely nothing else left when she was done, that my friends is called murder in my book.

2.  As for her "MarySueish" tendancies...she is only this way with one person...Kaleb.  I have to ask you this question, if she didn't go all goody goody with him and let him do what he wanted in killing and maiming at will, would he be the hero of the peace or the monster that he was groomed to be, if she didn't be a light for him, would the Psy even be in existance today or would he have colapsed the net and performed genocide to the extreme that makes Hitler look like a toddler playing with blocks?

/slow clapping it out

I had minor problems with some things (the majority of them were, however, my usual Singh-issues) but overall, I thought the book made "sense", as did the couple. I have a thing for childhood "friends", apparently. I also thought that both of their problems made their shared past, and their present feel more "intimate", which.. you know, good thing. Lately, most PNR novels seem so bland and boring, and not romantic at all, that it was refreshing to have these scenes with them. Plus, I loved the contradiction of both of them being so mature and un-innocent, and then smooching eachother like teenagers, except that they perceived it differently, which.. yeah, nice. Not even gonna talk about the plot rn. /howls 'Hong Kong' into the night

I haven't yet read all of the stuff here, yet. It's so much, but I need to know what you're all thinking. Aaaah, more tiiiime.

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