KOS, first chapy advanced excerpt now up!

degdelta wrote:Unlike many i believe that the punishment Hawke gave Sienna was entirely justified. unfortunately because, as he himself noted, he'd 'babied' her previously, she was undermining his authority by her behavior, regardless as to whether it was justified or not.

Remember folks - the pack is at war, undeclared but real. any chink, any weakness can be used by the other side, and leaving your post to do something you were ordered not to do is leaving the group open for destruction.

Hawke adding the third week on was, as i read it, for her attempted subordination. he, as Alpha, cannot afford to have her question him in his role for any reason. the consequences are harsh but necessary.

degdelta~ I agree with you. Sienna acted out of line as a novice soldier...and as such, hasn't earned the right to talk back to Hawke because she "doesn't agree" with him. It seems, at least from what's said in the first chapter, Hawke has let Sienna get away with stuff that he wouldn't normally have let her get away with if she were anyone but who she is. Not only did she disobey a direct order not to get involved in a physical fight (an order that was there for her own protection as a weaker species AND put in place because she IS such a powerful Psy, and therefore has the advantage if she chose to use her powers) but she should have walked away knowing that she could have killed Maria if she lost control. Sienna knows how close of a line that she's always walking, knows that it could take one slip on her control and she could take out the whole den...and she still let herself get pulled into a fight. That, imo, is worse than starting the fight to begin with...and it's the same thought that Hawke has, which is why he's so upset with her.

I actually think that this is the first time he hasn't let his personal feelings for Sienna influence how he deals with her. It would appear, from his conversation with Lucas, and various conversations he's had with Judd and Riley in past books, that he has let her get away with things in the past that he shouldn't have. He said it in the KoS snippet...he's spoiled her, given her a "long leash"...and her behavior this time has left him no choice but to give her a real punishment. He doesn't have the wiggle room anymore and if he continued to let her skate on stuff that no one else is allowed to get away with, it would cause dissention in the ranks. Something that he can't let happen if the pack is going to continue to be as close knit as it has to be to survive.

cheebee wrote:He thinks he babies her.......that's his perspective and the only one we've gotten so far........but it seems to me his perspective has already been shown to be unreliable where Sienna's concerned. It doesn't seem to me from the pictures we've seen of them in past books that he has babied her, it seemed to me in all those snippits that he was rather harsh not babying. So I don't think from his thoughts alone that its a fact that she has been babied.

Soooo...he shouldn't have punished her for leaving her post at all because he has feelings for her? Because if so...I would think that would make him an incredibly ineffective leader, especially during a war time. If Hawke hadn't been "babying" Sienna, she wouldn't have felt that she could talk back to him in the first place. I mean, I love Sienna as much as the next person...but really? Who does she think she is? She's not a lieutenant...she's not a high-ranking soldier, she's not an elder, she's not a healer (which Lara is, and is able to use to pull rank on anyone in the den if she deems that their health could suffer), and while she's a extremely powerful Psy...she doesn't have the control over her powers that would warrant a higher rank, or would warrant Hawke letting her skate by on her duties. If Hawke let her get away with leaving her post...what would that say to the other members of the den? Even worse, what would that say about Hawke's ability as alpha...if his people didn't feel he could enforce his rules on one simple soldier? It would completely undermine everything that he's built, and everything that he's re-built from the almost total destruction of a few years ago.

And how is his perspective unreliable? No one in the book has made any indication that Hawke is too hard on her. In fact, from what I've read, they've all implied that he needs to be harsh with her, at least where the pack hierarchy is concerned. In CBI, when talking to Judd later on in the book, Hawke is talking about some of the antics that Sienna is getting into, and when Judd asks him if he wants him to deal with it, Hawke says no. That it's not that big of a deal, and he'll handle it. In BbF, it took Riley weeks to convince Hawke to even give her a rank, b/c Hawke didn't want to stress her out...and her control over her powers was unstable. He may have been gruff with her in the snippets that we've gotten, but in the same breath, it's implied in various conversations that other characters have had about the situation, that he's let her get away with stuff that other pack members haven't been allowed to get away with. In fact, when he explains the situation to Lucas--the alpha of a completely different pack, and a less strict hierarchy system--even Lucas agreed with the punishment.

Even when she's done something wrong, he's let her go back and forth between SD and DR land at her whim. Yeah, part of it was for her own good, part of it was for his own peace of mind...and part of it was because she's Sienna...and he's got a soft spot for her. Has that soft spot been masked under an air of subtle irritation? Sure...but that's because, at least for the last year or so...he's been attracted to her. And it's an attraction that's starting to color all of his interactions with her, which is why he's tried to avoid interacting with her at all.

Hawke has been trying to treat Sienna like he treats the rest of his pack...and he's been failing miserably...and now it's come back to bite him in the ass...with the fight between Sienna and Maria. Sienna wanted to be treated like a valued member of SD...which means she has to take the good with the bad. She acted out of line...and for once, she needed to get punished like she was a member of the pack, and not the outsider that she no longer is.

That's why I'm soooo looking forward to KOS. The mating of two dominants always leads to interesting things between the pair...and Hawke and Sienna are the most dominant members of SD. Their coming together is going to be explosive.

Well I complete disagree, I guess. Although I never said she shouldn't have been punished, just that his personally feelings are influencing her punishment. Maybe I just don't like it whenever a hero is in an authority position over his love interest.

cheebee wrote: Maybe I just don't like it whenever a hero is in an authority position over his love interest.

Well...unless Hawke gives up being alpha of the SD wolves...he's always going to have a position of authority over his love interest, whether it's Sienna or someone else.

Even if Sienna were to say...become the leader of the Psy council...it wouldn't matter, since the changelings don't recognize the psy hierarchy of power in changling matters...and vice versa.

Just because he's in a position of authority in the hierarchy of the den matters doesn't mean that they aren't on equal footing in terms of man/woman. I think Sienna is more than a match for him on that level. It's a similar situation to Indigo and Drew...on the level of the den hierarchy...Drew was below her...but in terms of their personal man/woman relationship, they were equals.

I guess I'm just not seeing what the huge problem is with Hawke being alpha and Sienna being a soldier.

Ladyhawke wrote:

I guess I'm just not seeing what the huge problem is with Hawke being alpha and Sienna being a soldier.

Most of the group on this chat are seeing this perspective in the same lines as a boss being married or in a relationship with one of his employees. He has an unfair advantage over her due to his position of power in the working relationship they share, even though they are most likely equal, or even more biased toward the woman in the personal relationship. If that makes sense?!?

Whatever the reason for the treatment, I feel really bad for Sienna! Hawke is treating her like crap. He tells her to stay out of his sight, doesn't try and comfort her when Drew was hurt, STALKS her when she's just out on her own and minding her own business, and punishes her more harshly than others.

I've never really liked Sienna. But right now I feel really, really sorry for her because she deserves better than what she is getting from Hawke.

Five gets you ten that she considers defecting to Dark River.

Katherine wrote:
Five gets you ten that she considers defecting to Dark River.

I would have to disagree with you on this one Katherine...1: She is a sworn SD soldier, and 2: She wouldn't abandon her brother and cousin over a male...she is WAY too protective of those two to leave them behind.

Rageane wrote:

Katherine wrote:
Five gets you ten that she considers defecting to Dark River.

I would have to disagree with you on this one Katherine...1: She is a sworn SD soldier, and 2: She wouldn't abandon her brother and cousin over a male...she is WAY too protective of those two to leave them behind.

Yeah that's a good point. I hadn't considered that.

Unless she decided that her instability, caused by proximity to Hawke, was more harm to them than any benefit they receive from her physical presence.

Ladyhawke wrote:

cheebee wrote: Maybe I just don't like it whenever a hero is in an authority position over his love interest.

Well...unless Hawke gives up being alpha of the SD wolves...he's always going to have a position of authority over his love interest, whether it's Sienna or someone else.

Even if Sienna were to say...become the leader of the Psy council...it wouldn't matter, since the changelings don't recognize the psy hierarchy of power in changling matters...and vice versa.

.

Remember though when sascha told Lucas he wasn't her alpha and he said he didn't want to be....... If sienna left SD their hiearchy would not matter, no matter her level in any other group. His being an alpha would not matter because he wasn't HER alpha.

I dont see Sienna leaving SD...And Just because he is her Alpha, doesnt mean that would be too much of an issue, since she has no probs: answering back to him..but even if it is, we will just have to wait and watch how NS resolves this.
Im sure there will be some who will not be happy with how things turn out, some who would be happy.. and then there would be people like me, who wouldnt care less, as long as there are plenty of fireworks and sizzling close-encounters-of-the-third-kind....lol..

Im dying to see the "hellion" Sienna is supposed to be hiding deep inside her..

Ps: This had better be a really really long book, coz there is gonna be so much going down and i dont want the love story to suffer on it's account.. vice versa, there is lots that needs to be explained and damnit i want this book to b atleast 800 pages!

The wait will drive me nuts!

sephora wrote:

Im dying to see the "hellion" Sienna is supposed to be hiding deep inside her..

Me too! We've been told that she is & she certainly has driven Hawke crazy several times based on off-the-page actions. However, she's very quiet/kind of shy (not exactly sure if those are the words I'm looking for) in Play of Passion. I'm waiting for it to all come out! heehee.

And yeah, I'm hoping for mega-long book 'cause a lot needs to go down!