So who is the Ghost?

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So who is the Ghost?

Post by Katherine on Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:39 am

After the end of ToN I thought for sure the Ghost was Vasic but then I realized that it couldn't be. Vasic is tired of killing; tired of death while there doesn't seem to be any limit to the number of people the Ghost would kill. Also it doesn't make sense that the Ghost would meet Judd as himself (Vasic) and in disguise. If nothing else his voice would give him away.

Kaleb on the other hand has little to no interest in non-Psy life. Which strongly contradicts the Ghost's desire to watch Sienna's mating day party.

So my guess is that we haven't met the Ghost out of disguise.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Rageane on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:20 am

I'm starting to think the Ghost is Aiden.
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Lulu2011 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:28 am

It was the mating ceremony that also got me thinking it might be Vasic. But I'm having a hard time accepting why Vasic would keep this from Aden and meet separately with Judd as The Ghost when he's having secret meetings with Aden and Judd already. But . . . this started all the way back in CbI so maybe he doesn't want Aden to know the extent of his activities.
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:35 am

@Katherine - I think Vasic is just tired in general, not just of killing. All the martial Psy are damaged and I think Vasic is tired of fighting his abilities, tired of being a tool used for the Psy in power and probably sick of killing, but he had no problems or second thoughts about killing Henry. More of a bleek acceptance of who he thinks he is.

As to why he is meeting with Judd as himself and the Ghost. He is Vasic always when Aden is in attendance to these meetings. He was meeting with Judd as the Ghost long before Aden was speaking with Judd. I suspect he is protecting Aden from the knowledge of him being the Ghost.

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Vasic as the Ghost

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:37 am

The following are clues I compiled from each book to support Vasic as the Ghost. You could probably to the same for Kaleb, but I've made my decision and am trying to support it.

Caressed by Ice
- The Ghost is part of the council superstructure.
- The Ghost isn’t afraid to kill.
- Ch. 37 second paragraph, “just him and a man who might well be another Arrow”, in regards to Judd meeting with the Ghost
- The Ghost speaking, “My goal is to help my people, not to sell them out. I may be revolutionary, but I am not a traitor”
- The Ghost speaking, “I have no conscience, Judd”..”I’ve got so much blood staining these hands nothing will ever wash it away.”

Mine to Possess
- The Ghost: “He was a renegade, determined to oust the Psy Council from power and free his people from a Silence that was false. He had killed in the name of that freedom, would do so many more times before this was all over.”
- The Ghost killed Councilor Marshal in this book

Hostage to Pleasure
- Vasic is the one who transports Ashaya away from the morgue. Making him part of the underground rebellion.
- It’s likely Vasic is the Tk who transported the medic to save Dorian’s life.
- Nothing about the Ghost except him contacting Anthony when he shouldn’t have known about him. Zie Zen knew Anthony's secret and Vasic was teleporting Ashaya from Zie Zen’s directions.
- Clark Kent and Superman can’t be in the same place at the same time. I think this is the first major clue leaving the Ghost out the book, but introducing Vasic.

Branded by Fire
- “Do you know who he is?” (Riley asking Judd who the Ghost is)…”I have my suspicions, but he’s been very, very careful. I’m not going to speculate until he’s ready to blow his cover.”
- Judd speaking about the Ghost, “He’s dangerous. Brutal at times. He’d do anything to protect the Psy, lie, even kill.”
- “For the first time, the Ghost, a being of Silence, found he needed answers from someone who understood emotion.”
- “”Do I have any right to stand in the way of those who want to strengthen their conditioning? I’ve never been concerned with destroying Silence itself.” His goals were deeper, older. He wanted to cut out the rot, excise the sickness that threatened to destroy his people all over again…while their Council watched, complicit in their deaths.”
- “Long after the conversation was over, the Ghost stood in the desolation of his lonely location…”

Blaze of Memory
- Ming and Aden conversation: Ming “Vasic? Is he on Jax?” Aden replies ”No. He hasn’t been for years. His brain has reset” Ming thinks to himself “As long as Vasic was on a leash, there was no problem”
- Chapter 44 is a meeting with Judd, Xavier and the Ghost. I will admit, this entire conversation made me think Kaleb, and probably the entire chapter is why I thought Kaleb for so long. Having reread though, we know Kaleb’s motivation is finding a person and power, but we’ve never had a clue as to why Vasic is a rebel. Also the questions asked both Kaleb and Vasic would know the answers to, but only Vasic would be testing Judd’s allegiance to the Arrow Squad.
- Chapter 54 is Aden and Vasic discussing killing Ming but it’s affect would “destabilize the Net” and that it would create a “vacuum”. They also discuss partnering with Kaleb. Nothing specific, just a point of reference to highlight the Arrows devotion to each other and the Psy population.

Bonds of Justice
- Nothing substantial on the Ghost or Vasic

Play of Passion
- Anthony and Nikita discussing who will take over Arrows because they no longer have allegiance to Ming. Nikita says, “If the leadership shifts, there are only two possible successors.” Anthony replies “Kaleb and Vasic”. This surprised me because it indicates a level of power that I didn't realize Vasic had up to this point.
- Judd’s thought “The Ghost was connected to, and loyal to, the PsyNet.”
- Chapter 14 is a meeting with Judd, Xavier and the Ghost. Nothing specific but vague innuendo, but it could be perceived as Vasic or Kaleb.
- Chapter 28, Judd talking to the Ghost. “You can’t kill them all,” Judd says to the Ghost about killing all the Councilors. “They are a disease, a virus that feeds upon our people.” The entire chapter is worth reading for clues on the identity of the Ghost, but I always come back to the Ghost’s devotion to the Psy and PsyNet. It is very Arrow like thinking and not so much Kaleb type of thinking.

Kiss of Snow
- Vasic takes Aden to “a desert wasteland” and asks “Why do you always come here?” “There’s clarity here” Vasic replies. I refer you back to the last quote I listed under “Branded by Fire”. Kaleb stands on his balcony when thinking. Vasic goes to barren landscapes.
- “Aden thought of Vasic again, of the price the Tk-V had paid to retain his sanity.”
- “Vasic was taken off Jax when you were,” Aden tells Judd. “Did it help him?” “He says there was nothing left in him to save.”
- “The only thing the Ghost had admitted to date was that there was at least on individual in the Net who had some value to him, one person he did not want dead. That was the solitary thing that kept him from annihilating the entire Council,” Naturally when I read this I thought of Kaleb and the person he was looking for. Now I realize this could apply to Vasic who obviously cares deeply for Aden, the Arrows AND children in general. This statement could go both ways.
- “How is your mental status?” Judd asks the Ghost. “Sane. Though sanity is a question of interpretation.”
- Chapter 22, contents heavily favors Kaleb as the Ghost, but nothing substantial to really indicate the Ghost’s identity.
- Hawke to Judd, “The Ghost. You don’t trust him.” “Not in this. She’s a weapon of infinite potential.” Judd says. Hawke thinks, “And the Ghost, Hawke knew, had and agenda that had nothing to do with peace.”
- “Having had a very interesting conversation with Judd a few months ago, where the Arrow had trusted him with the identity of the Ghost, Hawke wasn’t surprised. The lieutenant had shared the name because he’d wanted Hawke to be able to understand dome of his decisions without further explanation, to be able to filter his responses through the lens of knowledge”
- Chapter 49, the first section is when the Ghost gives Alice Eldridge to Judd. It’s interesting about him thinking discounting what he is doing as friendship, but instead thinks in terms of “loyalty and fidelity”. Also the Ghost can’t recall ever having a soul.

Tangle of Need
- Vasic never goes in to the meetings Aden has with Judd at the Church. I think it is to prevent him being identified by Xavier as anyone other than the Ghost.
- Chapter 33, Vasic teleports directly into Anthony’s office. Anthony says, “It’s been a while.” We know Vasic has been used by the rebellion, but in “Hostage to Pleasure” the Ghost makes contact with Anthony. One could argue that at this point, Anthony too could know the Ghost’s identity and made contact with him. The entire exchange can be interpreted as Vasic as a rebellion member or as the Ghost.
- Aden says, “We will make decisions that benefit the squad and the Net. That is the single operative factor.” Later says, “The squad had no wish to abandon the Net, but neither will we stand by and watch those is power use us up then discard us.”
- “Aden met Vasic’s eyes in a silent warning, but Kaleb wasn’t paying attention to the Arrow who was both Silent and broken.”
- “Aden had known the other man nearly his entire lifetime, understood how close Vasic was to the final edge.”
- Chapter 68: At the start there is good insight to Vasic as a person. This is the chapter where Vasic leaves Aden to kill Henry. “Vasic knew he would never have a life like Judd, was too damaged, but Aden had a chance.”
- “Once Vasic had paid his debts, once the Net was safe, all he wanted was peace. Forever.”
- Aden to Judd about Vasic, “We can’t trust him, not after this is done.” “He (Vasic) doesn’t trust himself not to kill if he sees a teacher hurting a child.”
- Right after his discussion with Aden, Judd meets the Ghost inside the church, nothing really important revealed about his identity, then Judd speaks to Xavier, “He does not understand friendship, but I do.” Xavier asks, “Is it mercy to end the life of a friend savaged by torment, or is it a sin?” Judd replies, “Those are your questions, Xavier. Mine is only this: if he proves too unstable will I have the strength to execute a man who is a mirror of who I might’ve been in another life?”
- The Ghost watching the mating celebration of Hawke and Sienna is telling in a number of ways. “He’d kept an eye on this region since before the battle with Pure Psy for reasons of his own, had dropped by tonight as part of a routine sweep…” Speaking of Sienna, “Her height, however, remained much as it had been at fifteen.” “This was not a life he would ever have. It may as well have been an alien wilderness. Yet…he continued to watch.” I don't see Kaleb doing "routine sweeps" of any location other than where he lives and works. I don't think he is interested in Changelings enough to scope out their territory prior to the battle. I think most telling is how would Kaleb know how tall Sienna was at fifteen. An arrow belonging to Ming would though.

Overall, I've perceived Kaleb as striving to find one person and accumulate power. He has been damaged and has killed, but he benefits from loyalties to him, but being motivated by loyalty isn't how he is described.

Vasic, as an arrow, has priorities and loyalty to first the Arrows, then the Psy and PsyNet. His actions, statements and descriptions of him by others is in line with the actions, statements and descriptions of the Ghost provided by others. His deeper motivations are as hidden as the Ghosts. After the details in ToN, I'm convinced that Vasic is the Ghost.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Katherine on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:12 am

Tabitha (the other one) wrote:@Katherine - I think Vasic is just tired in general, not just of killing. All the martial Psy are damaged and I think Vasic is tired of fighting his abilities, tired of being a tool used for the Psy in power and probably sick of killing, but he had no problems or second thoughts about killing Henry. More of a bleek acceptance of who he thinks he is.

As to why he is meeting with Judd as himself and the Ghost. He is Vasic always when Aden is in attendance to these meetings. He was meeting with Judd as the Ghost long before Aden was speaking with Judd. I suspect he is protecting Aden from the knowledge of him being the Ghost.

I think Vasic's conditioning may be fragmented. He made a point of mentioning how many children were killed in the Cape Dorset attack and in Dorian's book he seemed genuinely saddened by that girl's death. Each death seems to cost him a little more of his soul and this is not only something he is aware of, its something he doesn't like.

Ghost is much colder, more silent. It could be that Vasic is putting on a persona for Judd but I don't think Judd would buy it. If nothing else the voice, posture, and all the other little things that make a person recognizable would give him away.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Lulu2011 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:17 am

Tabitha (the other one), welcome! Nice to see you over here.
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Katherine on Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:21 am

Mine to Possess
- The Ghost: “He was a renegade, determined to oust the Psy Council from power and free his people from a Silence that was false. He had killed in the name of that freedom, would do so many more times before this was all over.”

Mission accomplished on the first objective.

I don't know that I recall ever hearing Vasic express a similar goal though, or really any goal at all, other than to find peace. It seems like all he wants to do is die.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:24 pm

Aden says, “We will make decisions that benefit the squad and the Net. That is the single operative factor.” Later says, “The squad had no wish to abandon the Net, but neither will we stand by and watch those is power use us up then discard us.”

This the Arrow objective. Aden, Vasic and the others. Aden and Vasic's conversations are Arrow plans in regards to their actions and how it will affect the Net. They opted to not kill Ming because the Psy populace wouldn't be able to handle the backlash.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:29 pm

@Katherine,

Vasic is opening up to his lifelong friend about wanting peace. In no other context does he appear as anything other than a Silenced Psy. He was able to fool Ming for years. The Ghost's conversations with Judd aren't that cold really. He speaks of loyalty and has conversations about emotions and choices with Judd.

The only cold aspect about the Ghost is discussing operations with Judd. Just as cold as Judd is. That, to me, is their martial training, not lack of feeling.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by tabitha on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:34 pm

I agree with the other me Very Happy Both Vasic & the Ghost give off the same 'feeling' use similar phrases etc.

Kaleb doesn't do this to the same extent.

Does this mean both Kaleb & Vasic are looking for Sahara NightStar?
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:47 pm

When I was going through everything related to the Ghost and Vasic, two things jumped at me

1. In Branded by Fire - “Long after the conversation was over, the Ghost stood in the desolation of his lonely location…”. I read this and picture me with light bulb flashing above my head. Vasic and his tendency to transport to "desert wasteland" in Kiss of Snow and the plateau in Tangle of Need

2. In Tangle of Need - This isn't quite as obvious when reading, but I noticed when I was pulling info about the Ghost. The Ghost speaking of Sienna, “Her height, however, remained much as it had been at fifteen.” Who would know how tall Sienna was at fifteen. She belonged to Ming at that time, who was still leading the Arrow Squad. Only a person close to Ming could have gotten close to Sienna. If the Ghost isn't Vasic, I think this definitely excludes Kaleb and indicates an Arrow.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Lulu2011 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:51 pm

But doesn't Vasic also think in Tangle that he saw Sienna only once, when he was 18? I don't think she would have been 15 at that point, maybe closer to 10 or 12 or so.

So it has to be someone who saw Sienna at age 15, which was around the time the Lauren family defects to SnowDancer.
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:53 pm

I don't recall that, I will look now.

Edited: I can't find Vasic stating anything about when he saw Sienna.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Lulu2011 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:12 pm

It's at location 7183 on a kindle, or page 399, but that's when Vasic is 18 not Sienna. (Sorry)
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Lulu2011 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:14 pm

Here is the Vasic quote about Sienna:

"It was an abrupt though, about a girl he'd met only once - when he'd reported in to ming as an eighteen year old newly minted Arrow. She'd been a child, with a look in her eyes he'd recognized on a visceral level."

So Vasic couldn't have seen Sienna when she was age 15 since he only saw her once as a child. But the Ghost knows how tall she was at age 15.
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:22 pm

What other arrows do we know? Couldn't be Aden. Wouldn't make sense from ToN. Judd meets with him outside the church then goes into the church to meet the Ghost.

How old Vasic is now would have some impact. He could have been calling 15yr old Sienna a child.

Edited: Nalini has on many numerous occasion indicated 15yr.olds as children. Nate in reference to Tammy and Hawke referring to Sienna. I don't think our idea of a child is the same as Nalini's

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Lulu2011 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:56 pm

Most 15 year olds don't see themselves as children so neither do I. Smile
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:57 pm

I agree, I'm just thinking how Nalini has reference other 15 year olds in her books.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:59 pm

Any idea on Vasic's age. If he is early to mid-twenties, the time-line still works. That would make him a few years younger than Judd, which would explain why Judd is only familiar with him and didn't identify as the Ghost speaking from the shadows.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Lulu2011 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm

Tabitha (the other one) wrote:I agree, I'm just thinking how Nalini has reference other 15 year olds in her books.

Yes, you're right. They are considered "juveniles" so maybe she would see 15 year old Sienna as a child and, in fact, doesn't Hawke even refer to Sienna that way in the earlier books?
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:08 pm

Yes and I think Nate referred to Tammy the same way. Their bond happened on her 15th birthday. His wolf wanted her then, but the man knew she was just a child. Really similar to Hawke and Sienna. His wolf wanted Sienna at 15 or 16, whenever she defected, but the man knew she was a child.

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Lulu2011 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:11 pm

That's right . . . OK, so that tidbit doesn't rule out Vasic I guess lol!
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Tabitha (the other one) on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:13 pm

You almost had me! That was actually the closest anyone has come to debunking my theory. cheers

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Re: So who is the Ghost?

Post by Lulu2011 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:14 pm

Tabitha (the other one) wrote:You almost had me! That was actually the closest anyone has come to debunking my theory. cheers

I'm proud!!!!! I thought I'd debunked it too.
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Re: So who is the Ghost?

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