Tangle of Need: Riaz & Adria's Story- Coming June 2012

I don´t have a problem with it at all.

When you look at the usual relationships in the pack, it´s alot more physical than normal humans.

So Indigo had an affair with Riaz, a friendly tangle between fellow lieutenants and friends. No ill feelings, no lingering feeling of belonging or anything.

So what. She´s a grown, strong woman.
As is Adria.

It´s not like Adria stole Indigos man, because she wanted someone younger and juicier than this Martin guy.

And it´s not like Adria was kind of a motherly figure for Indigo.

That said. I liked the book.
I a little disappointed, that Walker didn´t get his own book, because I have the feeling, we´re missing out on alot of background information.
Some of it was included in Judds scenes, like the one, where he talks with Aden (what an eye opener), but still, there have been so much more.

On the other hand... he and Lara are not quite the most exciting couple around. Not a book length one for sure.

I loved Sienna, I liked Hawke and the way she was constantly yanking his chain in a creative way (and I loved how Kit helped her and the glimpse we got of the man, he would one day be)

Progressing background story: yay
Aden and Vasic: double yay! (and I just have to picture them as a pairing. The way those two work together ist just so much more than anything we have seen so far from any of the Sentinel/lieutenant teams)
ok.. tripple yay for Aden and Vasic.

As for the mate thing.
It´s been a continuing theme in the books (especially with Hawke) that there are more than one possible mate for a changeling. The mating has never had a chance to be complete, to to even get anywhere close to anything man/woman like. So it´s perfectly fine with me. I mean, they were kids for christs sake, and the mating IS a very sexual thing.
*yuck*

It worked with Clay and Talin, because they never had anyone else... and went through so much shit together.
But Hawke and Rissa were just kids... just normal kids, with no need to bond prematurely, where Clay and Tally had to, just for simple survival.

Now, another question... why is half of the guys in these forums German?

*g* Mahlzeit, Mädels

There aren't so many Germans here! ; p Are you?

Well, we know that already. That Changelings are very physical, but that doesn't change shit for me, because we readers aren't. It's like.. creating a guy and making him.. idk, a lion-changeling.

And because he's a lion he can have sex more than 15 times.. Everytime for about 2 minutes. It's in his nature, but since I'm human and I'd like more than 2 minutes I won't like it.

And why would I read that novel if I don't like it?

They are the first ones who point out that they aren't animals, but humans. That they're smart and have strong emotions. Remember how territorial all the guys got? Why wouldn't Adria?

It doesn't really matter that it was just sex or there are no ill feelings. I think Nina pointed it out perfectly. He was with Indigo, knew Adria and .. urgh. You know?

Nina wrote:'Cause all us girls know that nothing is sexier in a man than the knowledge that he was aroused by our sister.

When he knew us as well.

So it's not really about stealing her man or wanting to be with a younger man. It's just about the constellation. At least in my opinion.

TheFLuff wrote:On the other hand... he and Lara are not quite the most exciting couple around. Not a book length one for sure.

Because Nalini didn't make them more interesting. I think they could've been more than that. Alone the whole thing about how he is unable to express his feelings.. Lara as a healer, their connection with all the kids, his background-story. There's much that could've made them a very, very interesting couple.

TheFLuff wrote:It´s been a continuing theme in the books (especially with Hawke) that there are more than one possible mate for a changeling. The mating has never had a chance to be complete, to to even get anywhere close to anything man/woman like. So it´s perfectly fine with me. I mean, they were kids for christs sake, and the mating IS a very sexual thing.

Could you name the scenes were it was hinted that there was more than one mate? Because I can't recall any..
Tammy and Nate already WERE mates without having sex. The bond was THERE. Otherwise Nate wouldn't have found her. There was no big mating-dance bla. They came, saw and mated.

Tally and Clay weren't mates, because they were way too young, but also because maybe, just maybe, it was like with Indigo and Drew. They knew eachother for a very long time and the mating-instinct never kicked until.. well, until it did. Because before that they weren't ready.

Aaand I forgot what I originally wanted to say. Damn.

Yes I am...

I will look for the scenes, as soon as I´m finished with rereading all the Arrow/Aden-Vasic/Arrow/Kaleb scenes.

and before anyone says anything... it´s NOT an obsession.

Maybe, I don´t have a problem with it, because my best friend married my ex-boyfriend in April And I´m deliriously happy for them, I just know how perfetly they fit.

Well, I don't think Indigo will have a problem with Riaz and Adria either, so.. ; )

Oh, no, rereading Arrow etc. scenes is something we all do, I think. :'D I know that pre-KOS I've bookmarked evers Hawke and Sienna scene. I also always bookmark Judd-scenes. :'D

Edit: Yay, another one! : D Um die Uhrzeit sollte man zwar höchstwahrscheinlich keine Mahlzeit mehr wünschen, aaaber.. trotzdem Mahlzeit! ; D

achwas, grad aus der Mittagspause wieder da ^^

I´m suddenly finding some interesting scenes, e.g. when Aden and Vasic saved Dorians life.

Or when Ming and Aden talk and Ming dismisses Aden as "just a field medic". Which gets a whole lot more of a significance in the light of Walker teaching him deceptive TP tricks ^^

Guess we need a new arrow thread, huh?

Whaat? Okay, funny time to eat, but I'm living in another timezone anyways, it seems.

We have one, here. Why a new one?

Thread necromancy is evul!

But I guess I´ll revive it anyways.

ArbeitArbeit... Essen wann es halt geht

TheFLuff, you can re-read the Aden parts without any judgement on this board... we all have our obsessions.

Walker scenes are bookmarked in my ebooks, after all. You won't get any grief from me.

Because Nalini didn't make them more interesting. I think they could've been more than that. Alone the whole thing about how he is unable to express his feelings.. Lara as a healer, their connection with all the kids, his background-story. There's much that could've made them a very, very interesting couple.

This is exactly how I feel.

Just a thought:
All of the previous heroes have been similar in their personalities: aggressive and in positions of power. For lack of a better analogy I'll say Walker's more of a shadow king type. He's content to make a difference subtly, which makes any direct confrontation we've seen him in more powerful (storytelling-wise.) I would have liked a book about him.

But maybe that doesn't sell, I don't know.
Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions of good obsession-therapy psychiatrists?

It´s pretty much that...
whatever sells.

But then.. it´s getting better ^^

Read romance from a few years back and then marvel, at how far we have come.

I tried to reread books one and two today.. and god, was that disgusting.
Sasha and Faith were so.. whiny, angsty and weak.

Brrr..

But still the macho sells. The silent, reliable, unaction "softie" guy doesn´t

There´s a theory that women like male/male romance so much, because the usual stereotypes and gender roles don´t apply there.
Which I agree with.

Lara dn Walker, as much as we love them, aren´t the type of couple that sells. Not enough potential for action, not enough obvious dominance in him.

But the picture is changing. Look at Judd. What a not neanderthal he is. And how much we love him

Or how cool our heroines have become, Mercy, Indigo and Sienna.

No more fainting and crying and oh woe is me!

They just kick their man´s asses.

In that redard.. I´m kinda looking forward to Adria. That woman must be so mean....

Patricia wrote:

TheFLuff wrote:It´s been a continuing theme in the books (especially with Hawke) that there are more than one possible mate for a changeling. The mating has never had a chance to be complete, to to even get anywhere close to anything man/woman like. So it´s perfectly fine with me. I mean, they were kids for christs sake, and the mating IS a very sexual thing.

Could you name the scenes were it was hinted that there was more than one mate? Because I can't recall any..
Tammy and Nate already WERE mates without having sex. The bond was THERE. Otherwise Nate wouldn't have found her. There was no big mating-dance bla. They came, saw and mated.

Tally and Clay weren't mates, because they were way too young, but also because maybe, just maybe, it was like with Indigo and Drew. They knew eachother for a very long time and the mating-instinct never kicked until.. well, until it did. Because before that they weren't ready.

I don't think it's been a continuing theme in the books that there is more than one potential mate. There have been times it was sort of implied. But here is that quote from Caressed by Ice that I keep going back to:

"Though Hawke had been too young for the bond to actually materialize, he had found the woman who was meant for him. That didn't happen twice."

That seems to indicate that there is only one possible mate ever. Please don't misunderstand me, I am totally OK with whatever rule Nalini wants to have. One mate only, or maybe 2 or 3 possible candidates. Either is fine. I just don't like inconsistency. I don't like picking up one book and reading one thing, and then have it be different 2 or 3 books down the line. I do think what she did with Hawke/Sienna worked fine. Hawke was too young. The mating bond was never completed. Also, Rissa was the maternal mate that would have suited Hawke, had not all the bloodshed and betrayal happened within SD. It made sense to me that 20 years later, having lived through all of that and having become alpha at age 15, he is a completely different person and Sienna is the mate for that man.

TheFLuff wrote:I don´t have a problem with it at all.

When you look at the usual relationships in the pack, it´s alot more physical than normal humans.

So Indigo had an affair with Riaz, a friendly tangle between fellow lieutenants and friends. No ill feelings, no lingering feeling of belonging or anything.

So what. She´s a grown, strong woman.
As is Adria.

It´s not like Adria stole Indigos man, because she wanted someone younger and juicier than this Martin guy.

And it´s not like Adria was kind of a motherly figure for Indigo.

It's the family relationship between Indigo and Adria that gives me those internal squishy feelings of discomfort. If Adria and Indigo had just been close friends, I'd have no problem with Indigo and Riaz' old relationship. There is enough distance in that case (as there is with you and your best friend).

And, again I say that most readers would not have been happy had Indigo been Riley's ex-lover before she mated with Drew. That's just icky, having someone know their brother-in-law in that intimate way.

I prefer to view Hawke and Sienna's mating as fated/destined.
Yes, the boy and wolf has chosen, but fate wasn't so kind, and Rissa died because Sienna is Hawke's destiny.
Like Lulu said, Rissa would have suited the boy had his path in life remained unchanged - happy, secure.
But that wasn't what is in store for Hawke. His life was shaped in betrayal and bloodshed, his soul has been 'reforged in hell' so to speak, and this soul needs someone like Sienna.

That said, it would be more special and warming if there's only one mate for each one. But gosh, I adored Sienna so much that I just don't want her to be second best, even as the thought of 'more-than-one-potential-mates' makes me cringe. Sheesh!


As for Adria being Indigo's aunt...I already like Adria as a character, Fluff is right, I can no longer stand the previous heroines like Sascha and Faith, I'm eager for more like Indigo and Sienna, and Adria sounds tough as nails. I do admit that Riaz being Indigo's old lover made my squick meter blink, but I try to reason that they are changelings, Sienna mentioned how several of her friends were "involved in affectionate, sensual relationships that wouldn’t be permanent—but would be respected and cherished." I'm under the impression that these people are aware that there's always the possibility that their old lover could turn out to be their younger(or otherwise) sibling/cousin/family member's future mate.
Nobody knows who their mate is going to be, but they can't stay virgins either while waiting, or their animal goes mad.

I will be fine, so long as Riaz doesn't compare the two women. T_T

When you look at the usual relationships in the pack, it´s alot more physical than normal humans.

So Indigo had an affair with Riaz, a friendly tangle between fellow lieutenants and friends. No ill feelings, no lingering feeling of belonging or anything.

I don't think we've been given evidence to think changelings would be okay with their mate having had a physical relationship with a close friend/family member. In fact, I think we've been given evidence to the contrary:

“Juanita was very happy to tell me where you were.”

He heard the jealousy. “She’s a friend and a fellow soldier.”

“She was also your lover.”

The beast wanted to growl. “Who told you that?”

“I’m a decade younger than you,” she retorted. “Of course you’ve had women. I don’t need anyone to paint me a sign.”

The jagged edge of anger turned his next words razor-sharp. “I haven’t taken a lover since your fifteenth birthday.” He was a healthy leopard male in his prime. Sexual hunger did not sit well with him. But neither did cheating on his mate. “And if someone’s telling you different, I’ll tear out their throat.”

She blinked. “No one’s telling me different.” Her voice was husky. “But I don’t like knowing you’ve had other women in your bed, that they’ve touched you, pleasured you.”

And Tammy and Juanita weren't even close like Indigo and Adria.

But still the macho sells. The silent, reliable, unaction "softie" guy doesn't

I would rather date or marry a reliable Walker than live in Vaughn's macho cave. Overly type-A personalities are not attractive to me because their too much of a roller-coaster ride. It would be like living with an aggressive, hormonal teenage drama queen. I think this is why I gravitate towards romance books that have awkward/intellectual/geeky heroes and am always surprised by how Hawke, Wrath, and all those other super-alphas are so popular.

That being said - anybody have any book suggestions for a girl who likes awkward/intellectual/geeky heroes? (Minus the "Nerd series." I swear that author doesn't understand what a nerd is.)

I hate this PNR destiny-talk. I think it's almost as bad as saying that people just need to want something enough to get it. *cough Nora Roberts cough*

Yes, the boy and wolf has chosen, but fate wasn't so kind, and Rissa died because Sienna is Hawke's destiny.
Like Lulu said, Rissa would have suited the boy had his path in life remained unchanged - happy, secure.

1. So it was Rissas fate to die? ; )
2. Yes. And if Rissa was alive Hawke'd never have become the man he is now. He would have suited her. Which is why I don't think there should be fate. Hard to explain in English.. Umpf.

I don't like the whole one mate only-thing. What if your mate lives in France and you in Japan? Or (s)he's living in a freaking tribe in the Amazon..

If you are fated to be mated.. This one person's destiny (and yours) is to fit the other one. Perfectly. To be the counterpart. And to be that certain things have to happen to you and those around you. So, every freaking thing would be destiny. And I don't like that. It sort of takes your free will. But that's not even the point. I just don't see why there should be one mate only.

I'm under the impression that these people are aware that there's always the possibility that their old lover could turn out to be their younger(or otherwise) sibling/cousin/family member's future mate.
Nobody knows who their mate is going to be, but they can't stay celibate either while waiting, or their animal goes mad.

Yes. I don't think that's the point. It's just that it needs to be adressed.. properly. And dealt with. Because even if they can handle it -- Even if Indigo and Riaz are okay with their new relationship, if I were Adria I might have some problems with it. Wasn't Tammy quite jealous?

"Though Hawke had been too young for the bond to actually materialize, he had found the woman who was meant for him. That didn't happen twice."

As I've said - Maybe they just didn't know it could happen, because it had never happened before or because no one ever talked about it.

And I'd love to read more about Walker and less about all those uber-Alphas. They're okay.. in small doses.

Lol, Nina. I started answering when your answer wasn't published yet. xD

I think Tammy's case is different. She's the only changeling I know who was a virgin when she mated, she may feel differently had their sexual experiences been equal, and she's probably more frustrated with the fact that other women knows Nate more intimately than she does.

Of course, I'm not saying that changelings don't feel jealous, they're actually lethally jealous/possessive once they found their mates. But to dwell on their mate's previous sexual experiences would make them 'hypocrites' for lack of a better word, when touch is so essential to them.

As for destiny, yes it's uncomfortable to think that we have no free will/free choice, but that's how it is, we don't get to choose when we'll die. And there are so many things that are out of our hands. Of course, I'm not saying that we all should just lie down and do nothing. lol.

That's the thing with destiny, Hawke and Sienna shouldn't have met at all, but 'fate intervened'. Otherwise she'd become an Arrow and Hawke lived his life alone.

As for one mate only, I guess it's the fantasy it represents that appeals to me. In the real world, there's no such thing as 'perfect match', and what is a PNR novel but an escape from reality?

But what about Clay? He was jealous and mad about Tally's previous encounters and not just because she was being disrespectful of herself. And wasn't Hawke ticked about Sienna/Kit, thinking they might've been intimate? And Indigo's claws came out when Drew was just being flirted with because it reminded her that he could have any female in the pack...

All of these happened before they started the mating process.

Tally is human, not changeling, she won't go mad if she didn't have sex. lol, my reasoning could be off really, but I don't want to analyze Tally at all, I don't like her.

It would bother me if Hawke isn't jealous, because whether he recognized it or not, the mating dance has started. The same with Indigo.

Not everyone knows that they're in the mating dance. And perhaps the jealousy part is the 'first sign', that the dance has started.

But what about Clay? He was jealous and mad about Tally's previous encounters and not just because she was being disrespectful of herself. And wasn't Hawke ticked about Sienna/Kit, thinking they might've been intimate? And Indigo's claws came out when Drew was just being flirted with because it reminded her that he could have any female in the pack...

All of these happened before they started the mating process.

^This.

Of course, I'm not saying that changelings don't feel jealous, they're actually lethally jealous/possessive once they found their mates. But to dwell on their mate's previous sexual experiences would make them 'hypocrites' for lack of a better word, when touch is so essential to them.

They don't hold it against the other person, but that doesn't mean they don't still feel the jealousy or insecurities other people (or at least I) would feel. Adria obviously has been hurt by Martin. In which ways? Will she wonder if she's as good in bed as Indigo is? When people obviously think Indigo is a very good lover. Riaz is less dominant than Indigo, but more so than Adria. Will she wonder about that one, too? And so on. I just think that it'd be unrealistic to not make her contemplate these things.. Also, why was she with Martin that long? There was no real reason.. as far as I can tell. So, there has to be something.. And so on and so forth.

As for destiny, yes it's uncomfortable to think that we have no free will/free choice, but that's how it is, we don't get to choose when we'll die. And there are so many things that are out of our hands. Of course, I'm not saying that we all should just lie down and do nothing. lol.

Yes, but the way you said it it sounded as if in order for Hawke and Sienna to meet she had to die. - No. She just died. And then they met. Life's not a freaking trade, where you give up one person and meet another one or where you being raped is a good thing because you later met a nice guy in group therapy. Bad things just happen.

I don't really thing we have a choice as in the usual definition of free will, but we have the illusion of that. What we chose is sort of.. destined. In a way. Because life left its marks on us. If you know someone perfectly well you'll know what he or she'll choose. So, there is no actual free will- You do what life taught you to do. But you don't do it because there's a mating bond. There might be a formula to tell the future.. or not, but I don't see how this has something to do with a greater power in itself. And Rissa died, because she died, not because she had to, not because Sienna and Hawke were meant to be and she needed to get out of the picture. If Sienna and Hawke were meant to be, she wouldn't have been in the picture in the first place. At least not if it's like most people try to portray the whole matingbond-stuff.

Sienna didn't not become an Arrow so she'd meet Hawke. She escaped because of the choices Judd and Walker made. And she then met Hawke and fell in love with the man he was, just as he fell in love with her, because she has big boobs is the person she is.

I just don't think life centers around relationships or that things happen so that other things can happen. They happen AND other things happen then.

BUT that's a pet peeve of mine.. So.. Lalala.

Oops, you've answered. Okay, waait..

Tally is human, not changeling, she won't go mad if she didn't have sex. lol, my reasoning could be off really, but I don't want to analyze Tally at all, I don't like her.

It would bother me if Hawke isn't jealous, because whether he recognized it or not, the mating dance has started. The same with Indigo.

Not everyone knows that they're in the mating dance. And perhaps the jealousy part is the 'first sign', that the dance has started.

I love Tally. :< But okay, I won't start about her.

Yes, but wouldn't Riaz and Adria be in a mating dance as well? So: Jealous?

Question is: would Indigo be a threat to Adrias relationship?
She is mated. Supply closets and all.
Perhaps it's just imagination, but mated packmates seem to be perceived as less of ab threat.

As for nerds: Nora Roberts has a book with a comic/graphics novel artist.
Priceless

lol I didn't mean to belittle Rissa's life, and that fate killed her so Hawke and Sienna could be together. But the thing is, I don't 'know' Rissa, didn't get attached to her in any way, unlike Sienna, I adore her, big boobs and all. lol.
So it's easy for me to just staple a 'justification' for the mating bond that satisfies me.

errr. let me clarify something about my previous post too, Hawke is jealous of Kit yes, I don't know if he'll be jealous if Sienna had previous lovers before she came to him, but the point is, Kit entered the picture when Hawke already wanted Sienna, whether he admits it to himself or not, and perhaps the mating dance has started without him recognizing it, since he's so buried in the past. So his jealousy is more on the 'current' rather than 'previous'.

And about Adria, I don't think there's any cause for Adria to be jealous of Indigo as by this time, she's already mated to Drew. :3

TheFLuff wrote:Question is: would Indigo be a threat to Adrias relationship?
She is mated. Supply closets and all.
Perhaps it's just imagination, but mated packmates seem to be perceived as less of ab threat.

As for nerds: Nora Roberts has a book with a comic/graphics novel artist.
Priceless

Why would Hawke be a threat to Sascha/Lucas? Yet Lucas has always been jealous. I also don't think it's just about jealousy as in "She could steal him away" because no one can steal anybody. But if Riaz thought Indigo was a better woman than Adria that'd mean that Adria is just his second choice. Which would hurt.

And as I've said - It's okay, it just. needs. to. be. adressed.

Yurice wrote:I will be fine, so long as Riaz doesn't compare the two women. T_T

Didn't Riaz mistake her for Indigo in the very opening line of the excerpt published? She's walking ahead of him, he calls out "Indigo" and then she turns and he realizes it's Adria. I kind of winced when I read that.

I guess I expect Nalini to address this head on, how exactly Adria feels about it and how she deals with it. I just don't want her to sweep it under the rug under the comfortable "well, un-mated changelings will be frisky and it's no big deal to anyone as it's been years".

Lulu2011 wrote:
Didn't Riaz mistake her for Indigo in the very opening line of the excerpt published? She's walking ahead of him, he calls out "Indigo" and then she turns and he realizes it's Adria. I kind of winced when I read that.

Egad, yes you're right. The two women looked so much alike, there will be comparisons, I can almost taste it. T_T

Patricia wrote:
Why would Hawke be a threat to Sascha/Lucas? Yet Lucas has always been jealous.

I don't think Lucas is jealous, it's more like...he doesn't fully trust Hawke yet as he's wolf and an alpha to boot. :3

Strike the jealousy, let's keep the insecurity part.

Didn't Riaz mistake her for Indigo in the very opening line of the excerpt published? She's walking ahead of him, he calls out "Indigo" and then she turns and he realizes it's Adria. I kind of winced when I read that.

Me, too.

And I kind of wonder..

“You’re not Adria, Indigo.”
No, she thought, she wasn’t. She’d never let a man treat her the way Martin treated Adria—had always treated her.

She's not Adria and it sounds as if Adria is inferior to Indigo.. In a way. I'm too lazy to explain.. Arg, it's 00:16. Ffu!